[DWJ] "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans)

Gili Bar-Hillel gbhillel at netvision.net.il
Wed Jun 9 02:05:56 EDT 2010


It's always been confusing for me that the same people have different
traditional name pronounciations here in Israel than they do in the USA. I
was a theatre major and studied theatre both in Israel and in the USA, and
though I was able to make the regional distinctions, I would sometimes
stumble with my brain trying to remember:

Sophocles is Soh-foh-KLESS in Israel but SAW-fu-kleez in America
Aristotle is Ah-REES-toh in Israel but Ah-riss-TOT-ul in America
Aeschylus is AIY-skee-loos in Israel but ESS-ka-less in America
Aristophanes is Ah-rees-toh-FAH-ness in Israel but Ah-riss-TAW-fa-neez in
America, etc. etc.

Some people would say the name should be pronounced as close as possible to
the original, but sometimes the original pronounciation is lost in the mists
of time - and sometimes the attempt to emulate the original pronounciation
just end up making you sound affected. It is my firm belief that the
pronounciation should be appropriate according to the practices and
conventions of the society in which it is spoken at the time in which it is
spoken, not according to the approximated or hypothesised pronounciation at
the original location and time.

The same goes for Biblical names. In Biblical Hebrew - and in modern
Hebrew - the stress can only fall in one of two places: on the last syllable
or on the penultimate syllable. So strictly speaking, the correct form of
Deborah is "De-vo-RAH" and the correct form of Jonathan is "Y(eh)o-na-TAN".
John is "Yo-kha-NAN". Isaiah is "Y(eh)o-sha-YA", Joshua is "Ye-ho-SHU-ah",
etc. etc. But in most situations, if an English speaker were to suddenly try
to switch to these pronounciations, they would just start sounding affected.
Not to mention the fact that in Ashkenasi Hebrew and by extension in
Yiddish, stresses are very often opposite to modern and/or Shepharadic
Hebrew, and many American Jews are more familiar with the Ashkenasi Hebrew
than the Sepharadic Hebrew, so you'd have RIFF-kah rather than Riv-KAH
(Rebecca), Sheh-LOW-mow rather than She-lo-MOH (Solomon), DOH-fidd rather
than Dah-VEED (David), and so on. The "correct" pronouciation of these
names, therefore, varies with context - there is no single correct
pronounciation.

And by the way, once every year or two I remind list members that my name is
GEE-lee with a hard "G", not Jilly, please. :-)

Gili



-----Original Message-----
From: dwj-bounces at suberic.net [mailto:dwj-bounces at suberic.net]On Behalf Of
A.M. Winslow
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 4:24 AM
To: dwj at suberic.net
Subject: Re: [DWJ] "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans)


On Biblical pronunciations -- for the Old/ Hebrew testament.
I took Hebrew for a year. :)  Here's a pointer: in Hebrew, the accent is
most frequently on the last syllable.  Therefore "Deborah" is "de-vor-AH"
and Sarah is "Sah-RAH." The 'a' sounds are soft.  Saul's daughter's name is
"Mi-CHAL" (the 'ch' is in the back of your throat, like in German or
Scottish) NOT "MI-chael," which is how some people pronounce it.
If that helps. :)  Of course, half the time I don't pronounce English as I
should . . . especially as I live half in America, half in Scotland, and
nobody agrees what "should" is . . .
Sigh.  I do love the English language, though.


"On a canvas weird and wild but grand,
He painted the face with a master hand."
        -- Two Pictures

--- On Tue, 8/6/10, dwj-request at suberic.net <dwj-request at suberic.net> wrote:


From: dwj-request at suberic.net <dwj-request at suberic.net>
Subject: Dwj Digest, Vol 57, Issue 19
To: dwj at suberic.net
Date: Tuesday, 8 June, 2010, 23:46


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans)
      (Charlie Butler)
   2. Re: "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans)
      (Kathleen Jennings)
   3. Re: "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans) (S. Worthen)
   4. Re: word pronunciations (Kathleen Jennings)
   5. Re: "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans)
      (Gili Bar-Hillel)
   6. Re: "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans) (devra at aol.com)
   7. Re: "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans)
      (Elizabeth Evans)
   8. Segue (S. Worthen)
   9. Re: "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans) (Colin Fine)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 21:11:09 +0100
From: Charlie Butler <charles.hannibal at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [DWJ] "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans)
To: Diana Wynne Jones discussion <dwj at suberic.net>
Message-ID:
    <AANLkTikmW_2He6dgExunj4X0W-JibezZQ26NJC6eU4yV at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I've never had trouble with "'dour", but have to do a double take every time
I come across "lowering clouds", to remember that it's just an alternative
spelling of "louring". It doesn't help that nimbus clouds, which are the
lowering type, also tend to be lower in the other sense.

Charlie

--
Website: www.charlesbutler.co.uk
Blog: http://steepholm.livejournal.com/


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 06:28:59 +1000
From: Kathleen Jennings <kathleen.jennings at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [DWJ] "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans)
To: Diana Wynne Jones discussion <dwj at suberic.net>
Message-ID:
    <AANLkTik-laxWG4brL1CU-aoubo0GDwZ6uQNgiJw0HAJt at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 6:11 AM, Charlie Butler
<charles.hannibal at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've never had trouble with "'dour", but have to do a double take every
time
> I come across "lowering clouds", to remember that it's just an alternative
> spelling of "louring". It doesn't help that nimbus clouds, which are the

I never knew that! But then, when you read aloud, it sounds like
"alluring" clouds.

My mother's American and my father is Australian, so I grew up trying
to placate everyone - calling diapers/nappies "dappies" and spelling
color/colour "coulour". But my sister and I did distance education so
my mother would from time to time call up the school about a task we
had to do to say that the English workbook was wrong, the only word to
choose to rhyme with "rain" was "again" and they didn't sound alike!
To which the teacher would patiently reply, "They do if you're
Australian, Mary".

K.

-----------------------------------------
http://tanaudel.wordpress.com



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 21:30:21 +0100
From: "S. Worthen" <sworthen at owlfish.com>
Subject: Re: [DWJ] "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans)
To: Diana Wynne Jones discussion <dwj at suberic.net>
Message-ID: <CA901013-1A26-48CE-92EC-599D4E1CBA87 at owlfish.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed

      Based on dictionary sampling, American dictionaries allow for 
variety (regional?) in pronouncing dour, while the British ones don't.

Some American dictionaries:
Merriam-Webster gives \?du?r, ?dau?(-?)r\
The Cambridge Dictionary of American English: daur, dur

Some British dictionaries:
OED: du:r
Collins: [[doo]-er][rhymes with [tower]]

    Shana
   

On Jun 8, 2010, at 8:29 PM, Colin Fine wrote:

> Gili Bar-Hillel wrote:
>> Mine was "coiffed". Another one was "dour". I thought it rhymed 
>> with "sour"
>> until two people in the same week corrected me that it is 
>> "door" (I kept on
>> with my old pronounciation as it was hard to shake. Now I simply 
>> avoid that
>> word altogether).
>>
>>
> I have always pronounced it to rhyme with "sour". I was aware of 
> "door" (or "doo-er"), but wouldn't think of using it: I'm really 
> quite surprised to find that the OED lists only [du:r].
>
> Colin
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dwj mailing list
> Dwj at suberic.net
> http://www.suberic.net/mailman/listinfo/dwj




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 06:32:17 +1000
From: Kathleen Jennings <kathleen.jennings at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [DWJ] word pronunciations
To: Diana Wynne Jones discussion <dwj at suberic.net>
Message-ID:
    <AANLkTimFeJXxDyU5CTUw4vf9-TjYpNMSAXChIq5iaYVH at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 1:20 AM, Irina Rempt <irina at valdyas.org> wrote:
> For me 'grey' is a bluer kind of gr[e|a]y, and 'gray' a browner kind.
> Computer greys -- equal amounts of RGB -- default to blue for me, probably
> because of my tetrachromatic eyes.

I think of 'grey' as watered down black or dirty white, but 'gray' as
blueish, and (claiming dual citizenship) use both accordingly.

K.

-----------------------------------------
http://tanaudel.wordpress.com



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 23:54:01 +0300
From: Gili Bar-Hillel <gbhillel at netvision.net.il>
Subject: Re: [DWJ] "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans)
To: Diana Wynne Jones discussion <dwj at suberic.net>
Message-ID: <PKEFIJHEKJEFMHLOOEIDIEEFCFAA.gbhillel at netvision.net.il>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Ah! I am vindicated! Thank you, Shana!

As for gray/grey, I seem to remember in Madeleine L'engles' book "A Ring of
Endless Light" she tries to draw a distinction between the eyes of two
characters in the book, Adam and Zachary, one of whom is evil and has grey
eyes and the other is good and has gray eyes or vice versa.

-----Original Message-----
From: dwj-bounces at suberic.net [mailto:dwj-bounces at suberic.net]On Behalf
Of S. Worthen
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 11:30 PM
To: Diana Wynne Jones discussion
Subject: Re: [DWJ] "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans)


      Based on dictionary sampling, American dictionaries allow for 
variety (regional?) in pronouncing dour, while the British ones don't.

Some American dictionaries:
Merriam-Webster gives \?du?r, ?dau?(-?)r\
The Cambridge Dictionary of American English: daur, dur

Some British dictionaries:
OED: du:r
Collins: [[doo]-er][rhymes with [tower]]

    Shana
   

On Jun 8, 2010, at 8:29 PM, Colin Fine wrote:

> Gili Bar-Hillel wrote:
>> Mine was "coiffed". Another one was "dour". I thought it rhymed 
>> with "sour"
>> until two people in the same week corrected me that it is 
>> "door" (I kept on
>> with my old pronounciation as it was hard to shake. Now I simply 
>> avoid that
>> word altogether).
>>
>>
> I have always pronounced it to rhyme with "sour". I was aware of 
> "door" (or "doo-er"), but wouldn't think of using it: I'm really 
> quite surprised to find that the OED lists only [du:r].
>
> Colin
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dwj mailing list
> Dwj at suberic.net
> http://www.suberic.net/mailman/listinfo/dwj


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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 18:17:11 -0400
From: devra at aol.com
Subject: Re: [DWJ] "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans)
To: dwj at suberic.net
Message-ID: <8CCD56F79FDFC24-2250-1EA6 at webmail-d004.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


What about the wine-dark sea, which somewhere I read should be more properly
translated as 'the fish-filled sea'?

Devra






-----Original Message-----
From: Helen Schinske <hschinske at aol.com>
To: Diana Wynne Jones discussion <dwj at suberic.net>
Sent: Tue, Jun 8, 2010 1:32 pm
Subject: Re: [DWJ] "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans)


----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie Butler"
<charles.hannibal at gmail.com>

[re "oxymoron"]

>I used to tell my students that it was Greek for "stupid cow." No one
> laughed, though.
>

I remember telling one of my college professors that the translation
"ox-eyed Hera" bothered me, because I kept hearing it as "oxide Hera." Of
course "cow-eyed" would be even worse, though cows and oxen do have pretty
eyes if you look at them the right way.

Helen Schinske 
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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 10:19:59 +1200
From: Elizabeth Evans <er.evans at auckland.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: [DWJ] "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans)
To: Diana Wynne Jones discussion <dwj at suberic.net>
Message-ID:
   
<52BC295436FACF49A9D62F1530A308700410F1977D at UXCHANGE7-1.UoA.auckland.ac.nz>
   
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Gili commented

As for gray/grey, I seem to remember in Madeleine L'engles' book "A Ring of
Endless Light" she tries to draw a distinction between the eyes of two
characters in the book, Adam and Zachary, one of whom is evil and has grey
eyes and the other is good and has gray eyes or vice versa.

I don't remember picking this up! Thank you . . . I'll have to go and
re-read this now.

I find Biblical names a pronunciation sticking-point. I think this is
another area where American and English pronunciation differs. I have heard
American speakers refer to Isaiah as Eye-ZAY-a, and English speakers refer
to him as Eye-Zye-a.  I was lurking quietly in my pew one Sunday when I
discovered that the sad patriarch's name was not pronounced like an
occupation, as I had always thought, but Jobe. (I was going to spell it
Joab, but then I remembered Moab, which I believe is pronounced Mo-ab).
However I really embarrassed myself when my Bible study group was reading
Obadiah. I said 'O-BAY-dee-a' and was smartly corrected. Apparently it's
OH-ba-DYE-a. Since then I've always waited for someone else to lead the way
in Biblical pronunciation. Though our vicar advises that if you have to read
the lesson, just read all those names with an extremely confident air and
most of the congregation will say to themselves 'oh, so THAT's how you
pronounce it!'

Aside from the Bible, I've also been puzzled by 'segue'. I always mentally
pronounced this as 'seeg', but it's not,  is it?
Regards
Elizabeth.

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:42:11 +0100
From: "S. Worthen" <sworthen at owlfish.com>
Subject: [DWJ] Segue
To: Diana Wynne Jones discussion <dwj at suberic.net>
Message-ID: <E6E6A71D-2A1D-45D1-A712-D65B499E5204 at owlfish.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed


On Jun 8, 2010, at 11:19 PM, Elizabeth Evans wrote:

> Aside from the Bible, I've also been puzzled by 'segue'. I always 
> mentally pronounced this as 'seeg', but it's not,  is it?

    Not usually.  It's pronounced 'segwei' as it comes from Italian via 
musical language.

    But what really interests me is that this is the second time in as 
many days that I've encountered the pronunciation 'seeg' for it.

    Yesterday, it was an English teacher. I asked her about it: she said 
she distinguished between 'seeg' for non-musical contexts, and 
'segwei' for musical ones. She knew it couldn't be entirely wrong, 
dictionaries aside, because she had heard other people say it that 
way (which is, of course, how alternative pronunciations evolve and, 
sometimes, become dominant), and anyway, it starts off too much like 
"sequential" to stop. And now it had become habit with her.

    Relatedly, an a column on the word: http://www.news-sentinel.com/
apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090317/EDITORIAL/903170325

    Shana



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 23:46:16 +0100
From: Colin Fine <colin at fine.me.uk>
Subject: Re: [DWJ] "Orthogonal" (orthogonally to T-shirt slogans)
To: Diana Wynne Jones discussion <dwj at suberic.net>
Message-ID: <4C0EC838.1050800 at fine.me.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Elizabeth Evans wrote:
> Gili commented
>
> As for gray/grey, I seem to remember in Madeleine L'engles' book "A Ring
of Endless Light" she tries to draw a distinction between the eyes of two
characters in the book, Adam and Zachary, one of whom is evil and has grey
eyes and the other is good and has gray eyes or vice versa.
>
> I don't remember picking this up! Thank you . . . I'll have to go and
re-read this now.
>
> I find Biblical names a pronunciation sticking-point. I think this is
another area where American and English pronunciation differs. I have heard
American speakers refer to Isaiah as Eye-ZAY-a, and English speakers refer
to him as Eye-Zye-a.  I was lurking quietly in my pew one Sunday when I
discovered that the sad patriarch's name was not pronounced like an
occupation, as I had always thought, but Jobe. (I was going to spell it
Joab, but then I remembered Moab, which I believe is pronounced Mo-ab).
However I really embarrassed myself when my Bible study group was reading
Obadiah. I said 'O-BAY-dee-a' and was smartly corrected. Apparently it's
OH-ba-DYE-a. Since then I've always waited for someone else to lead the way
in Biblical pronunciation. Though our vicar advises that if you have to read
the lesson, just read all those names with an extremely confident air and
most of the congregation will say to themselves 'oh, so THAT's how you
pronounce it!'
>   
My mother once remarked that she had learned "ca-NAY-an" as a child,
rather than "CAY-nan".
> Aside from the Bible, I've also been puzzled by 'segue'. I always mentally
pronounced this as 'seeg', but it's not,  is it?
>   
It's Italian, not French (or Anglo-French).
When the word "macho" started being used in English, twenty or thirty
years ago, I noticed uncertainty between "matcho" and "makko". I put
this down to people knowing vaguely that 'you don't produce "ch" as
"tch" in "foreign"' (eg "Chianti"). Conversely, there's a Mexican
restaurant in Bradford called "la Cocina", and I've heard lots of people
call it "Cotcheena", as though it was Italian.

Colin





------------------------------

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