I Ate'nt Dead -- or That Which Does Not Kill Us Makes UsStronger

Hallie O'Donovan hallieod at indigo.ie
Fri Sep 27 17:40:06 EDT 2002

Not at all sure this reply is Intended, as the stupid email program I'm 
using now ate
the first version.  And this one is uneaten, but now I can't get online 
to send it...
(Thornlady in the files?)

On Wednesday, September 25, 2002, at 01:50 AM, Ven wrote:

> Hey,  half-baked, uninformed feedback is better
> than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

Ok, in that case...    And I'll try to remember your preference for 
future reference. :-)

> Me
> I've read Jung and particularly Campbell and a
> lot of comparitive mythology. I certainly had the
> archetypal hero's journey in mind when I wrote my
> post. Other examples of the shadow self -- Mitt
> and his father in DA (I could make out a case for
> them being each other's shadow selves*) Moril in
> C+C, the whole family in SC (ie  their undying
> heritage), Howard and several others in AG,  Derk
> in DLOD ends up having to play his own Shadow
> self as it were.........

What about TOD?  I think that's part of the problem (at least, *my* 
problem with it),
as it seems that she suddenly backtracks to make the Ogre far
too nice to fit his earlier behaviour.  I don't know, that bit just 
never quite
worked for me, though I love other bits of it.

> Hallie
> <_Deep Secret_ is a bit different, as the ones
> who are literally
> sundered have been split by the actions of other
> people, while Rupert
> maybe acts it all out on a purely human level.
> Better explain that -
> his sociability, his connection with people in
> general, has been
> repressed, split off from him, and he has to
> accept that he did this,
> mistakenly, while Maree and Andrew have done
> nothing themselves which
> caused them to be split.  Right?  Actually, it's
> even a bit more, as
> part of the way Rupert sees he's made mistakes
> (and I can't think of
> a character who is *more* willing to admit his
> mistakes, probably way
> too much so) is by seeing the other potential
> magids who seem to have
> bits of the character he's split off, but in
> their cases, it's their
> whole character, rather than a repression of a
> part they don't want
> to acknowledge.  Punt, with his "aloofness",
> which turns out to be
> just voyeurism, Tansy Ann's "grey psychic
> blanket", which she sees in
> everyone else.  Don't know about Thurless and
> Gabrelisovic(?)...........>
> Me
> Thurless is like personified anger -- Meldrew
> without the humour ("blocking my way, dancing
> about and flicking her damned fingernails -- I
> Don't Believe It" is actually very Rupert now I
> come to think of it.

So it is.  Which works two ways, I think.  First, you could see  part
of Rupert's problem as being that he thinks he shouldn't feel anger,
and his attempts to repress it cause problems such as Maree's fateline
getting entangled in the working because of the spurts of anger.  (Hmm.  
thought how that way of showing an emotion which can't be repressed any 
could be seen also in Polly's washings of bleach  guilt in Bristol 

But secondly, (and I'd expect  a lot of people wouldn't buy this), you 
could go back
to Tom's "being a hero means not worrying how silly you look".  Rupert 
needs to
learn that, but, couldn't you see Thurless (and to an extent, also 
Maree) as showing
the flip side of it?  Thurless has absolutely no idea that his behaviour 
is far beyond silly to
ludicrous.  Even Maree, in the stopping traffic on the suspension bridge 
to do the witchy
dance, could be seen as taking a right and important understanding so 
far that it
becomes destructive too?

> WhatsisCroatianname is just
> psychotic, he's slipped all his gears.

Yeahbut.  Now that you said that, of course it's true, but that is 
possibly another
repressed side of Rupert.  He says something about his own mother having 
to put
up with some pretty strange behaviour from him before Stan started 
training him, doesn't
he?  And that could easily amount to his having had some lurking doubts 
as to whether
he mightn't just be barking mad.  AND - the other part of Gabrelisovic 
(I like your version
better!) is that he's a witch sniffer, right?  So could be that the fear 
he represents is
that fear of the power inherent in magic - Rupert's fury/hurt when Maree 
says "the
unforgivable thing", that he's trying to rule the world, comes from the 
fact that he knows
they do walk a very fine line sometimes.  Not to mention the 
ruthlessness of the Upper

> <This quote really impressed me. I found this a
> while ago, and was
> longing to use it in an essay on _Dracula_, which
> gets *tons* of
> Freudian analysis, but sadly couldn't.
>     Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung, James Hillman,
> Louise-Marie von Franz and others have written
> eloquently and extensively about the importance
> of myth in our modern society, the need for
> tales rich in archetypal images to give coherence
> to fragmented modern lives. "Using archetypes and
> symbolic language," writes folklore scholar and
> author Jane Yolen, "[fantasy tales] externalize
> for the listener conflicts and situations that
> cannot be spoken of or explained or as yet
> analyzed."
> Good quote
> The "fragmented" modern lives just struck me as
> particularly apt to
> the sundered bit of your list of ways the motif
> shows up.>
> Me
> The fragmentation of modern lives was already in
> motion when DWj became an evacuee, so it's
> something she has always lived with. And Irrc she
> does acknowledge it's influence on the kind of
> things she writes about, THB (Homeward Bounders)
> being a prime example.

Well, I'm sure Terri Windling was talking about modern lives as
in those of the readers of _Dreams Underfoot_, but of course the
idea of "modern" life being fragmented has been kicking around for
a long time. Don't mean that to sound condescending - I'm just agreeing
with you about DWJ and thinking of where I originally wanted to go with
that quote, which related to Dracula.  And basically I'm firmly stuck
in the 19th Century for the next couple of weeks.  As in 19th C novels,
not as in _Time and Again_.    :-)


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