Scales was re Diana's replies

Ven ven at
Mon Apr 23 21:48:26 EDT 2001

> Ven:
> >There are so many scales one can use, Tanya Huff, for example is
> >definitely more lighthearted than dark souled but I wouldn't know
> >where to put Dwj on that one -- I guess she transcends it.

> How about light-souled but often sad-hearted?? :)
lol, but how true!

> >  > >And Cynthia Voigt I argue
> >>  >with in my head all the time I'm reading her books -- so she can't
> >>  >be wise because I don't agree with her <g>. it just goes to prove
> >>  >how subjective all these things are.
> >>
> >>  Well, you don't agree with all your friends all the time, do you?
> >>  At least you're not throwing the books out the window. 
> >>
> >Tam Lin reference? 
> Did I make a Tam Lin reference there unwittingly? 

Pamela Dean's Tam Lin, the ghost throws books out of the window. 
I only mentioned it because that book comes up a lot.

 I still can't see 
> it.
> >  > I think you're right about character and family stuff. I just get
> >exasperated with the Tillerman family's extreme independence. As
> >a child of the welfare state and a strong believer in mutual aid I
> >really don't understand their rejection of any kind of help from
> >outsiders, including the government. Which is to say I'm not looking for an argument
> >on this one. I suppose this is an example of how cultural
> >differences affect judgement.
> I wasn't about to give you an argument on this!  I've always felt 
> that the extreme independence was really something which *could* be 
> positive taken to such a length that it became a serious character 
> flaw.  The Gram in the Voigt books felt to me rather akin to someone 
> Granny in F&H could have become, had she had a lifetime of dealing 
> with a bitter and abusive spouse, all the tragedies with children, 
> instead of having one tragedy and trying to deal with it as best she 
> could.  She's clearly shown to be flawed (that sounds pompous again 
> and cliched, but I'm blanking out on another way to present it), but 
> struggling to change as much as she can.  Dicey - also very clearly 
> not perfect, indeed, often not even likeable - and her mother I'd 
> felt responded in the way they did partly out of fear/knowledge that 
> help would not be given without excessive interference.  All the kids 
> would probably have been taken from the mother into care, and Dicey 
> saw how Sammy and Maybeth could have been badly damaged, by 
> well-meaning people trying to give help.

I dunno if they would have been taken into care, at least not 
permanently. A friend of mine is a psychiactric social worker, their 
role is to help people to stay out of hospital and help them to live 
independently. Dicey's mother wasn't violent or a substance 
abuser, she had managed to bring them up alright until she 
became too depressed (as far as I remember) so social workers 
doing their jobs properly would have tried to keep them together. 
It's actually a part of the problem I had with these books that the 
most pessimistic view is taken of the authorities and not 
challenged. Or is it really that much worse ioin the States?

(There is a family in Sheffield whose parents disappeared during 
the Haj pilgrimage to Mecca. There were five of them, the oldest, a 
girl of 17. They were given support so that they could continue 
living in the family home, with the oldest as guardian, and practical 
help so that she could go to school.)  

> >Absolutey so. Btw I saw Connie Willis talking about character at a
> >convention. She was one of these who has no truck with her
> >characters having ideas of their own.
> Wow.  I think I'd have found that really depressing!  Although I'd 
> still love to get to one of these big conventions.

Not so much depressing but hard to believe. The convention was 
fascinating but a bit overwhelming. I always wanted to be in several 
places at once.

> > 
> >  > >Yeah puppies are good and so are kittens, but there'd be nowhere
> >>  >to sit .............................
> >>
> >>  ...not to mention less money for books after feeding them, and paying
> >>  exorbitant vet fees.  You're right.
> >>
> >
> >My ex and I, many years ago, shared a bedsit that was so small,
> >that when both the cats were in, as well as us there really wasn't
> >anywhere for visitors to sit.
> My mother's two (large and white-hairy) dogs have taken over the sofa 
> in her living-room.  So the distinction between *real* visitors and 
> friends is whether the dogs are evicted, the sofa uncovered, and 
> people actually able to sit on it.  I was determined not to make the 
> same mistake, and so trained Bell carefully - she now only sits on 
> the sofa when we're out or in bed.  Such obedience.
> >

It's suppose to be a good idea not to let dogs sit where they want 
all the time, so it's clear that they are not in charge. I never let my 
friend's alsations sit on sofas when they all lived here. However now 
they are the grand ages of 11 and 12 its  allowed  when they visit.  
Btw The 12 year old has become incredibly pale, as though she's 
been at the bleach, I've never seen an alsation like it but I've heard 
its rare for them to get this old.

If all the good people were clever,
And all clever people were good,
The world would be nicer than ever
We thought that it possibly could.

Dame Elizabeth Wordsworth, Good and Clever 1990
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